"Guns. Lots and lots of guns..."

[Micheal Strife]

So i remember playing a table top game called Weird Wars. It was a fun game where the Nazis discover magic and the allies are all "ohh hell no that's not good"... it was a lot of fun Mythral king tigers tanks were involved.

It used the D&D 3.5 rules. So a lot of cool things happen with guns being in the same place as magic. simply put the huge combat spells are all but useless. As the book says, why use fireball when a grenade does the same thing much more cheaply. In the same respect, some spells became amazingly powerful. Missile Defense became the best spell in the game because all bullets counted as missiles. The short of it is that mages became status effect and special damage throwers, along with the major buffers of the game. The standard soldiers became the main damage output for range. Only at high levels could mages start doing the huge damage spells repeatedly. At the same rate the riflemen could start doing status effects only at higher levels.

It strikes me that in any game where there are two ways of getting the same damage out there, they should really specialize in one group of damage verses another. Gunners can do the straight continuous damage but mages have the status effects.

This is me going crazy game designery.....

[Aaron]

[quote="gaelicwolf"][quote="Jacob"]You should also read up on the "By My Voice" method of effect delivery. By and large, though, explosives will be something plot either gives you to use, or gives you to run away from. Please don't build a character thinking that you will be able to explode every problem.

We all know: you don't blow it up. You burn it. Burn it with fire.[/quote]

Also, that is a very valid point. There are few things in a LARP that can't be solved with burning it with fire (to some degree or another).

Hey, all that nasty business with those miners or the law could have been solved with fire. It would have been very messy and we might have been branded as awful, evil people, but it would have been solved by the burning with the fire.[/quote]

You know, most of the miners problems stemmed from the Butcher Boys. Even though we liked the Butcher Boys...

In response to the whole bullets discussion: Gun bunnies are pretty bursty. If you're a little too trigger happy, you can blow through a void of bullets really quickly. The trick will be to select skills that let you fire bullets/status effects off of other stats. This won't make it so you can continuously shoot things for an hour, but if you're calm and focus on making each shot count, it should last you plenty of time. Also, in LE, there were things called items. By the end of the game, they were really strong. While we probably won't see any items as strong as the ones in LE, I do think things like the reloaders that refresh marksmanship or the powder monkey (the refresh marksmanship skill) skill might pop up.

[Merana33]

[b][u]DISCLAIMER: I am playing devils advocate right now.[/u][/b]
Actually if my math is right that build works out much more expensive than your conservative 28cp..

Here are the facts we know so far:
[quote="Jacob, wielder of the Trout of Shame"]
1) [i]Handgun [/i]will be a General Skill available to all PCs.
2) [i]Marksmanship [/i]will be a 5 rank General Skill available to all PCs at the rate of 2 CP per rank
3) [i]Expert Marksmanship[/i] will be a 3 rank Skill available to certain specializations at the rate of 3 CP per rank.
4) Handguns will do 3 Damage, Rifles will do 5 Damage. Flechette Pistols will do 4 Damage, Flechette Rifles will do 6 Damage. Heavy Weapons will be Bad Bad Things.
5) Discharging a firearm will cost either F or 1 point of Marksmanship, barring other factors. And at times and with certain weapons there [i]will[/i] be other factors.
[/quote]
Assumptions: [list]
[*]The attribute point cost progression is the same as in LE[/*:m]
[*]The "Handgun" skill costs 3cp. (I could easily see this costing 4-5cp, but let's go on the light side[/*:m]
[*]Headers cost 5cp (based on the current wikki this is the average)[/*:m]
[*]Specialization headers cost 5cp (again, based on the current average)[/*:m]
[*]We are not using the one 'free' header that RACE:Human gets[/*:m][/list:u]
5 points of fire = 12cp
General: Handguns = 3cp
General: Marksmanship X5 2cp*5=10cp
Header = 5cp
Specialization header = 5cp
Specialization skill: Advanced Marksmanship X3 3cp*3=9cp
Total build spent: 44cp

That's 4 cp [u]over[/u] the build available to a starting character. So that would have to be a character that has attended two events already, and has 1cp unspent.

I'm sorry ken, but that's pretty much exactly what I would qualify as a "Bruno who just shoots guns" character build.

From a game balance standpoint 3-6 damage per shot is just about spot on if the 'normal' person has 2hp and maybe 1 armor when it comes to bullets. That's firmly in the lethal range. I'm not contesting this part.

My major concern is the following scenario:
Mary does not have a melee skill and strangely left her frying pan at home today. She does however have a small revolver in her purse which has 5 shots. (2 Fire, 3 Marksmanship)
On her afternoon stroll through the park she's attacked by 3 thugs. She pulls her gun and defends herself from her attackers, but misses twice in the process. She's now out of ammo.
A few hours later she's attacked by some kind of supernatural horror in the parking lot. She pulls her gun and.. >click< She still has no ammo. Mary is now dead.
Why? Because there is no mechanic in place for carrying spare ammunition.
Or even worse, instead of continuing on with her life after she ran out of ammo, Mary decides to go home because she is now completely helpless if something should happen again. Not exactly what I'd call an enjoyable LARP experience.

Bullets are fairly cheap, sold in quantity, and guns are easy to reload given 5 minutes or so. A quick web search shows me that pistol ammo tends to come in boxes of 20-50 rounds for anywhere from $15-$40. Even the S&Wesson 500 round (the largest caliber handgun round in production) runs ~$50 for 20.

The reality of things is that in the modern world, gun users are more common than skilled melee fighters. Joe off the street is just as likely if not more likely to hurt HIMSELF with a melee weapon than an opponent unless he's had some sort of training, be it martial arts, occupational training, informal instruction (such as being a LARP'er) or something of the like. (Women seem to get the 'blunt kitchen implement' and 'thrown ceramics' weapon skills for free at chargen however. )

Thanks to TV and Film, most people over the age of about 8 know how to operate a firearm. If they've had even the [u]slightest[/u] bit of formal instruction they are typically able to hit in the vicinity of what they're shooting at, and aren't likely to injure themselves in the process either. This, coupled with the sheer amount of damage that even the smallest round can do is one of the primary reasons why melee weapons have been relegated to ceremonial applications these days.

OR is in virgin territory with regards to game theme and has a LOT of potential. In my ~20 years of LARP'ing I've only seen a few games even attempt the modern genre, and those have been underwhelming at best. I'm really hoping that OR can break out of the 'hit the monster with the stick' pattern that seems to be the norm in LARPs these days.

OR deserves to be something other than just another dime a dozen, cookie cutter game.

But then again, that's just my opinion.

[Madrigus]

[quote="Mike Natale"]I saved a bunch of articles about customizing Nerf weapons and converting them into something much more realistic for larping purposes.[/quote]

Sharesies!?

Also: James, you amuse and delight me.

[Aaron]

[quote="Merana33"][b][u]DISCLAIMER: I am playing devils advocate right now.[/u][/b]

Thanks to TV and Film, most people over the age of about 8 know how to operate a firearm. If they've had even the [u]slightest[/u] bit of formal instruction they are typically able to hit in the vicinity of what they're shooting at, and aren't likely to injure themselves in the process either. This, coupled with the sheer amount of damage that even the smallest round can do is one of the primary reasons why melee weapons have been relegated to ceremonial applications these days.[/quote]

I just have to respond to that with this: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJw8ju61z9E[/url]. It's a fun little clip from the RoosterTeeth series Immersion. Basically the idea is in zombie video games, the pcs are magically good with guns and just start scoring headshots. They test this out. Watch the whole thing. It's enjoyable.

[Mike Natale]

[quote="Jacob"]GAH!

Please bear in mind: Internally modded guns are not legal for OR. You can cosmetically modify them as you like, but tweaking darts, springs, or firing mechanisms is not ok. The new guns are borderline terrifying OOG already...[/quote]

It really depends on what you're modding. If you want to go with a more realistic looking stock/barrel for ease of painting and conversion you might have to go with a gun that's actually pretty crappy before internals are modified. If the stock gun can fire a dart 30 feet out of the box you think that's terrifying?

For example take this model.
http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Army-108-982 ... roduct_top

you can probably use this right out of the box at a larp. However you're not going to hit anything. I can easly throw a packet 100 feet with accuracy I should be able to fire a gun that distance with a remote chance of hitting target. Especially when firing said gun is going to be limited to a per weekend basis.

All I'm saying is you should probably wait to see the actual weapon before you say yes or no to modding it internally. When you do a playtest next year I can show you what I'm talking about.

I'll have to find that bookmarks folder with some of the nerf gun stuff I have, I put it together a few years ago and It's not on my current computer.

[cathy]

I believe the whole point on gun mods are the fact is most modifications shoot the dart harder.

Yes, it improves accuracy...but ouch. Non-modified guns still shoot a dart that can take a person out if hit in the eye. To be honest, the math is against those odds, but when it happens...(I think it is because we just bring misery upon ourselves being larpers and all)... the aftermath is terra-bad. I have even seen it take out a NPC / player for a day or more. (No one sanitizes the heads of the dart before they fire so there is dirt and sediment all over it which can lead to increased irritation.) Normal darts can hurt enough...making them more powerful just adds to the risk of more bad things.

I think safety is worth it, because suffering over something stupid bites.

Two-cents from the resident glass girl.

[Merana33]

Speaking as someone who has been the firearms safety marshal for Isles for the past 4 years I can tell you that not all 'performance upgrades' are unsafe. As a matter of fact, there really are only a few that can make a nerf gun dangerous, contrary to popular belief.

Rather than sidetrack this thread too much I'll put this forward: I have used both stock and upgraded nerf guns safely in LARP's without incident for many years. I have also gone over the 'safe' line in the past and it is VERY easy to spot by a trained safety marshal. I am more than willing to educate anyone in how to SAFELY upgrade a nerf gun, or to check if one is UNSAFE.

LARP'ing is, by definition, a dangerous activity. However I've seen (and received) more injuries from normal boffers than I have by any nerf gun, modified or otherwise.

[ken]

Well, as the self-appointed safety marshal for the game, I have a very simple criteria for modding a weapon: We'd prefer it if you didn't, and you risk your weapon getting rejected. It's much like showing up with a latex sword, which I like to call a "Friendship Breaker".

I'll be checking all boffers and all guns at every game, mostly because those same weapons will be striking my tender flesh all weekend. If I test a gun, and it stings at point blank, it'll be rejected. If a weapon doesn't meet the weapon safety requirements on padding, it'll be rejected.

If you remove an air restrictor and I miss it, bully for you. You got it in... That being said, you'll have more impact power on your 'point blank' test, so it's possible you'll also fail.

I'm not going to open your gun up. I just want to make sure it's safe for all participants.

[Steve]

I like safety. Safety is good. My main interest in mods is making the gun work realistically, like making the barrel work right or preventing jamming (please tell me theres a mod that prevents jamming). If there's a mod that makes it fire more accurately while still being safe, awesome. But I'm no expert in mods and I'm not gonna do any that effect how the dart flies unless another gun has passed with that mod.