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Occams Razor • View topic - Crafting: Resist and Parry

Crafting: Resist and Parry

Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby ken » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:04 pm

While I agree it the spirit of the rule would be Parry should block some sort of directed melee (or potentially missile attack), the rule as written is:

"You choose one attack of the appropriate type to negate when it strikes you. You can allow an attack to affect you and negate a later attack. Although different verbals are used to indicate the nature of your defense and to add flavor to the game, all of these defenses work the same way. You must call out the defense when it is used."

If it's not specified what you can Parry, etc against (i.e. a generic grant from an item), use it against anything as you would any other smart defense. Although I do think it's cheesy to parry a BMV call, it is technically allowed. But, we also reserve the right to then hit you with a melee attack with the same effect :)

As far as crafting goes, Deeg might need to correct me on this, but I believe we have an authorized user section on the tag, if you're crafting it for someone else, and items can be transferred in the system. However, we do want to track usage, so make sure you enter that field appropriately.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby Jacob » Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:59 pm

Right! So!

By the core rules:

"If no trait or delivery is present then the defense works against any melee, missile or packet attack"

So you can't actually use a parry on a By My Voice unless you have some freaky awesome thing that specifically says you can.

Which you don't.

Note: I slacked on the reply, and Ken is an officer and a gentleman for fielding this, I apologize for coming in late!
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby liahgeron » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:03 am

So, to clarify, does that mean we're going with the crafted "Parry" being a Grant? The rule you quoted applies only to Granted defenses, not the general Parry call. I agree Parry BMV is a bit wonky, but I want to make sure about the wording of it all in case there is later a device or item acquired in game does something similar without being defined as a "Grant."
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby Jacob » Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:24 pm

I don't have access to the rule book while I'm at work, but I'm fairly certain all item effects of that nature are grants to avoid somebody stacking 900 items that grant "Elude" or some such.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby liahgeron » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:29 pm

That's actually been one of the unclear points about the crafting system. Items exist in a weird in between zone as they are not technically part of accelerant. It used to be that buffs were represented by having "imbue tags" that basically meant, "read this." Grants were created to streamline the process of pre-battle or in-battle buffs rather than needing to print out and explain each imbue tag.

Items sometimes follow this model and sometimes don't (see Mirror, Mirror, 5th Gate, Aralis 2, Shadows of Amun, Cottington Woods and Madrigal all having different variations). Grants are also strange in that they don't move between characters as they are a once-off call where as Imbues can be worded to be in effect so long as you are holding the item. This can be gotten around of if you choose to use "charges" and a trait given by the item so long as you hold it (i.e. an Imbue Card or carefully worded grant tag on the item that Removes the trait when you let go.)

The Grant limit actually came into play a decent bit after the original grant rules partly as a result of them lasting till the end of the weekend, allowing you to stack buffs from multiple modules or field fights where you got boons (this led to a crazy fight in 7V when at least one character had double the maximum buyable limit of his primary offense between stat grants and a grant refresh stats). Item buffs in other games are instead limited by their wording since they aren't always "grants." Mirror, Mirror and 5th gate I think are going with a 2-item per PC limit, whereas in Aralis there was never any such limit, which has occasionally led to some... interesting interactions. Most items in Cottington Woods and Shadows are crafted 1 use items, but don't in fact have a limit to the number you can carry and use, just the number you can craft. Similarly, items in many games may have an expiration (see OR, Endgame) or and upkeep (see 5th gate), or both in some combination (Aralis).

Sorry for the long post, but it boils down to whether or not you as the GM would like to count items as giving out Grants at the Terminal when made, that a single item occupies a number of grant slots equal to the number of uses it has (1-3), that they remain independent of the Grant system or something along those lines.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby Madrigus » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:45 pm

The big issue though is that according to OR craft rules crafted items produce an effect utilizing a delivery method. See the other thread on crafting: expose. It boils down to (effect) with (delivery). Parries, Resists, and Avoids have the catch that we're having issues with and we go back to my original question:

The three above defenses lack the need for delivery methods. If the item says "while this item is on your person you may do (blah)" the issue is that the crafting formula requires at least a 1 point expenditure for delivery method that doesn't exist and therefore you're cheated out of more than just one production point as there's multiplication involved.

You can't shoot a gun for parry, touch cast avoid, or melee someone for resist. Giving the item the ability to grant the defense overcomes these issues, but then the above complications happen.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby HecateSkivvy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:55 pm

Personally, I've been treating the whole thing as if it were a grant effect, since that makes the most sense.

The sensibility seems to be that the parry item is intended for melee strikes, packets, and bullets with no particular regard towards trait specificity, and that the resist item is intended for resistance of particular trait attacks; including special deliveries such as BMV or BMG.

I treat it as a grant effect., Usable per event, per tag. Which makes the most sense. If it has a delivery method, but cannot be delivered, it is likely a grant. This stuff is a pain in the ass to code; give our staff a break in regards to exact wording if the gist of it can get through.

I know we all love accelerant here, but sometimes the core rules are tough to apply unilaterally. In the meantime, use common sense. Rules as intended vs rules as written. All that jazz. The issue has been brought up, and I'm sure things will be clarified soonly.

In the meantime, just flow with the spirit of the game. If it seems like a dick move or abuse of a technicality, dont do it. Simple as that.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby liahgeron » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:58 pm

As a starting point, I recognize we've strayed far from the initial point of what Parry works on and I apologize for apparently setting that off. Allot of this and my last 2 posts concerns more how items work in Accelerant and Occam's, which I think is pretty important to define, versus the niche situations where an untyped parry lets someone bypass a fight mechanic or trap.

The problem I have with treating items as a grant effect is that none of the offenses are and there is already a separate "grant 1 armor" and "grant 1 protection." This leaves the option of treating it as a grant somewhat odd to me. Additionally, it interacts strangely with passing items since you can pass the item then grant it to multiple others. Plus, it eats up the handful of Grant slots we have, particularly if we count all items as Grants, including plot items.

While we can't currently coordinate crafting enough items to really sway a battle in the same fashion, it might become important if say we have to take down a fully unbound demon or similarly stated field or module boss and our only remaining source of typed damage is from the crafting. Alternatively, if 2 Strain 117 are dueling, crafted Parries can mean the difference between surviving and permanently dying. Knowing how the calls will work can be important here, and these situations will inevitably come up.

As it takes time, planning, resources, and coordination to arrange crafting in these ways, the "don't be a dick rule" also doesn't really apply. The extremes of both possible outcomes to the ruling (counting as a grant or not) don't effect the outcome, just how things are planned out and the calls are made. "just rolling with it" might lead to a break of combat with a "Really, how are you doing that?" unless we do make the clarification. Additionally, whether or not a item is a grant you get when you pick it up versus an item you can carry and issue is EXTREMELY important to define for crafters and people with plot items.

Items are a strange thing in any accelerant game, I agree, but I would like a solid ruling as, in recent years, there has been allot of confusion spread amongst the community by game specific rulings not being described as such. Blocking 1 handed with a staff took years to remind people that it was a skill specific ability, not core accelerant. Similarly, Disengage has been the source of loud, in battle arguments about whether or not one side was using it correctly as a result of one game allowing disengage while agonized. Even within just the core rules, how Maims work has needed allot of clarification recently: A melee maim effects the limb it strikes; a spell or gun maim affects either the limb indicated in the call, or the target can choose a random limb; a melee strike for maim is almost never limb specific; and a torso hit will not cause them to lose a random limb. I'll admit I am very much a stickler for how the rules work because they do work very well if we all have them down pat, but previous OOG arguments I have witnessed in the middle of otherwise epic field fights have convinced me to try and make sure the rules are clear in advance when we do get these nice situations where they can be clarified on a OOG level.
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Re: Crafting: Resist and Parry

Postby Jacob » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:11 am

Obviously this is an issue that requires thought and clarity.

As things presently stand, items are not grants unless otherwise stated.

We will revisit this issue and offer a comprehensive answer after recovering from the impending session.

Because really, when you're talking about OR, "impending" is the most fitting word I can think of.
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